FFRF Letter - on Bayview Cross

When it rains it pours.  Now FFRF wants in on the action.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6o3NJt8hBe8SFlEWS1qaDBDb3M/view?usp=sharing

Bayview Cross - Humanist Legal Center Cease and Desist Letter

You can read the letter here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6o3NJt8hBe8X2lidnVWSXJwTVU

I am not granting interviews or making statements about this action.  I leave that to the Appignani Humanist Center - the attorneys who wrote the letter.  For local perspective, the Humanists of West Florida may comment on this matter.

Emails with City (Pcola) Parks Dept over Bayview Cross

I want to be clear that I attempted to speak with the City and work with them before going the legal route.  The messages below contain my requests, as well as both the responses I received from the City Park department.  I also sent other emails (without response), requesting a meeting and copying the the Mayor and City Attorney, with no responses.  

-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian Cooper" [bcooper@cityofpensacola.com]
Date: 07/02/2015 11:35 AM
To: "'wordsnmusic'" <wordsnmusic@excite.com>;
Subject: RE: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

David,

Please see below as I have replied to your previous emails. 

The City of Pensacola owns Bayview Park. The amphitheater and accompanying features belongs to the City of Pensacola. All information related to this particular portion of Bayview Park, that we could readily put our fingers on, has been provided to the City Attorney's office in response to your public records request. 

Brian Cooper
Director
Parks and Recreation
City of Pensacola
(850) 436-5670
(850) 436-5199 FAX


-----Original Message-----
From: wordsnmusic [mailto:wordsnmusic@excite.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 1:27 PM
To: Brian Cooper
Subject: RE: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

Brian, 

Once again, I'm asking for a meeting. Since you are not responding, I assume you don't wish to meet.
So I ask this simple question. Please answer: WHO OWNS THE CROSS IN QUESTION? 

David

-----Original Message-----
From: "wordsnmusic" [wordsnmusic@excite.com]
Date: 06/24/2015 03:42 PM
To: "Brian Cooper" <bcooper@cityofpensacola.com>;
Subject: RE: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

Brian, 

Thank you. I know about the public records request, as I made it.

I am asking to sit down with you simply to discuss the issue and to gauge the City's position. Instead of bringing the issue to public's attention or pursuing it through legal channels, I would like to give the City a chance to act voluntarily - out of concern for religious neutrality and church/state separation. To that end, I have some suggestions. I'm asking to open that dialogue first. Is that something you are willing to do?

Among my public records requests, I asked who owns this crucifix. My public records request (W000736-061615) did not return any results. I have called, but am unable to get a straight answer to this simple question. I don't want to assume the City owns the cross, just because it is on City property. So perhaps you can tell me - who owns the cross?

I am available by phone, but I would prefer an answer by email or in person.

David



-----Original Message-----
From: "Brian Cooper" [bcooper@cityofpensacola.com]
Date: 06/24/2015 09:53 AM
To: "'wordsnmusic'" <wordsnmusic@excite.com>;
Subject: RE: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

David, 

The City is currently addressing this item through a public records request. I have assisted them by providing all of the details we have available in Parks and Recreation. 

Brian Cooper
Director
Parks and Recreation
City of Pensacola
(850) 436-5670
(850) 436-5199 FAX


-----Original Message-----
From: wordsnmusic [mailto:wordsnmusic@excite.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 4:43 PM
To: Brian Cooper
Subject: Re: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

Mr Cooper, 

Did you received this message? Are you available to meet?

David

-----Original Message-----
From: "wordsnmusic" [wordsnmusic@excite.com]
Date: 06/14/2015 11:13 PM
To: "bcooper@cityofpensacola.com" <bcooper@cityofpensacola.com>;
Subject: meeting - re: Crucifix in Bayview Park

Mr Cooper,

May I meet with you in person to discuss the large crucifix in Bayview Park (near the boat ramp, picture attached)? I am concerned about its year-round placement on City property as a matter of church/state separation. I don't wish to create a public uproar or legal issue, so I am hoping we can reach a compromise that allows the crucifix to be erected whenever Christian religious services are at the nearby stage. Traditionally, that only happens on Easter. 

I am available most afternoons. I prefer to meet one-on-one, but if you feel you need an attorney present, I can enlist one as well.

David Suhor
850 512-2220

ECSB's Bergosh Posts More Lies, Misunderstanding, Patronizing on his Blog; I Respond

Here's Jeff Bergosh's latest blog post and my responses.  He refused to post one response, so I've included it at the bottom.  Nothing here is new - just typical, entitled, condescending Jeff writing off Constitutional violations.  

The Board still will not give a written invocation policy.  Nor will they allow Humanists, Pagans or atheists to deliver invocations, despite multiple requests.  The good news... an attorney will soon be contacting them.  

Enjoy.

Friday, June 19, 2015

Free Exercise Clause and the Freedom OF Religion

After performing a chant on a carpet in front of the Board's Dais,  David Suhor of Pensacola non-verbally protests the  opening  Christian Prayer of the Escambia County School Board by turning his back on the Board and holding a sign that reads Matthew 6: 5-8  6-16-2015

This past Tuesday night, I had the distinct honor and privilege of leading the opening prayer for the benefit of the assembled legislative body--the school board--- at our regular monthly meeting. 

Our board has a standing tradition of rotating the duty of the opening prayer/pledge of allegiance among the five board members.

Over the last year or so, we have been berated by an individual that has accused us of being non-inclusive in our prayers.  This individual has also inaccurately accused us of violating the law with our opening prayer practice.

The board has discussed this issue on several occasions and the consensus is that we stick with the current practice of rotating the 

duty of either bringing the opening prayer or bringing a guest to do so.

Importantly—our attorney Donna Waters stated publicly at open meetings that our current practice comports with the law and also with recent Supreme Court rulings; however, she does not guarantee that we will not invite litigation if we continue our opening prayer practice as we have been doing.

Furthermore, in an abundance of caution, she has recommended that the best way to insulate the board from litigation on this subject would be to have the board transition to a “moment of silence.”

The board heard what our attorney stated and still affirmed the intention to have individual board members make the determination about what sort of prayer we open our meetings with and which, if any, guests to invite.  I agree with this opinion.

Over the last 12 months we have been very inclusive—more so than ever before!  We have had poetry about geese instead of a prayer, we have had a moment of silence on multiple occasions instead of prayers, we have had a Jewish Rabbi lead our prayer, and we have also had Christian prayer.  We have been inclusive; we have demonstrated tolerance and compliance with Greece V. Galloway and Marsh V. Chambers, as well as with the U. S. Constitution.

The First Amendment of the Constitution contains the free exercise clause, which precludes the government from abridging the right of a citizen to practice the free exercise of his religious belief--  Any citizen, all citizens!  

In our nation, we have the freedom “of” religion, not a freedom “from” religion.  We also have the freedom of speech--even (especially) political speech.

Thank God we have these freedoms!

Nowhere in the constitution is there any mention of a “wall of separation of church and state.”

Activists and others that hate religion in general and Christians and Jews in particular-- claim there is a “freedom from religion.” They ignore the actual Constitution and simply hang on one badly faulted interpretation of a friendly letter to a Baptist group by an aging President as the basis for this incorrect belief.

Why do we allow a militant, vocal, yet minuscule minority opinion to sway us so often in this nation on this issue?  Why?

PICS: Cross-to-Anchor, Historic Info on Stage, PNJ & City Council 1951

Below is some of the (scant) data I've collected about the history of the cross.

But first, here's what they did to a cross in Grand Haven, Michigan.  I LOVE IT!  I wish they would do this here!!  It would be so appropriate, since the cross overlooks the water and we have a long, stories Naval history here.

And now the FEW resources I could find, as well as a pic of the plaque dedicating THE STAGE, NOT THE CROSS itself.


From the City Council minutes, 1951 concerning the stage.  The resolution itself is lost, I'm told:

An article about THE STAGE, not the cross itself, from a 1951 Pensacola News-Journal microfilm:

And a close-up of the plaque dedicating THE STAGE to Frasier Phelps.  I have no problem with the plaque or the stage.  In fact, I contacted his family (mentioning only that I was researching the history of the cross) to learn about the early history of the Easter services.  They were very helpful.  There is no plaque commemorating the cross itself - probably because it is has no historical significance, except to celebrate Christianity in Pensacola.

Another FB Post, Indicating the City's Position (screenshot)

Like the others, this one continued after I captured this screenshot.  I haven't included all posts, but my response (my last, if I can help it) is below.

David Suhor I'm not going to debate this on FB anymore. No one's minds will be changed. But, just to be clear, I didn't initiate this. I am responding to a complaint from a group that rented space in the park. They know I care about Establishment Clause issues in local government, so they reached out to me. I tried for weeks to get a meeting with (or answers from) the P&R director. Responses were non-existent or terse at best. No meeting, though. Recently, I tried the City Attorney and the Mayor. I've suggested several compromises that would make this cross less biased and problematic. No answer.
I have NO desire to get involved in a legal fight. BUT, whatever the popular opinion, there is clearly a church/state violation here. It may not rise to the level of bothering you, but it's there and it bothers some folks. I see it as similar to the Confederate flag, but without the public outcry or historical context. This area of civics is my passion, so I'll enlist all resources available to resolve it in a Constitutional manner. 
In the end, I believe compromise (convert to anchor or a removable cross/not year-round) is better. But that's not the position the City seems to be taking. They know this could create a costly (and losing) legal battle, but choose not to act unless faced with a lawsuit... then they will give up park land to avoid it (a failure as strategy, BTW). Is it worth spending tax dollars on such a losing cause? For the sake of Christian privilege? I think not. So I hope they'll reconsider. 
Rally all you want. Gather pitchforks and subtly threaten me on FB, Ashli. Pray or try some other ineffective means. I will work within the law - for our Constitution, for the separation of church and state, and for local government to practice religious neutrality, as they should.

2 hrs · Like · 3

more Facebook Freak-Out - other people's posts

THESE ARE INCOMPLETE, because they continue.  The first was written by one of the admins of the East Hill Neighborhood Association's FB page.

Janet Brooks Sallis
10 hrs
Neighbors, even though it is well within David Suhor's rights to inquire about and protest the cross placed at Bayview Park, he has been met with name-calling and derision. I expect better from my neighbors. I see people who are passionate, well-educated citizens resorting to low tactics. This is not who we really are. Social media can be a terrible place for a sensitive discussion, but only if we let it become that. Please project the best and most respectful version of yourself into the discussions here.
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You and 76 others like this.

Matt Deavenport Mob Mentality took effect and ruined that thread. Unfortunate how people behave behind the curtains of the internet messageboard.
10 hrs · Like · 11

Veronica Koernig Well said!
10 hrs · Like · 1

Jennifer Young-Ghiorso Many of the comments supporting the cross weren't very "Christian-like"...interesting.
10 hrs · Like · 7

April Braecklein My opinion is this , I feel we have bigger issues than a cross that I love seeing at Bayview for years !!! Like the people who go 50 on our roads , people taking things they didn't work for , etc ... It bothers me that so many people want to stir thin...See More
10 hrs · Like · 4

Janet Brooks Sallis In regards to the issue Mr. Suhor raised, I really am a proponent of the principle, "What you give attention to is what will persist." Just imagine if all the people who chose to get stirred up had instead just shrugged and said "Meh." He would have garnered no attention. It does not mean the issue doesn't matter. It simply means you will not reward that behavior with attention.
10 hrs · Like · 10

Janet Brooks Sallis Also, can you tell I'm the mother of a 2 year old child?
10 hrs · Like · 3

John Carter You are assuming that the majority that supports the cross are Christians. What does "Christian-like" mean? Are you name calling?
9 hrs · Like · 3

Lisa Sheridan Common My jaw was on the floor reading through that thread. This is a closed group right? I hope so, because I would hate if other neighborhoods read that thread and thought we all acted like that. I don't usually join in a lot of the discussions, but I have to on this one. Can we hide it and start fresh?
9 hrs · Like · 6

Janet Brooks Sallis Lisa Sheridan Common, it is a public group. Which means anyone on Facebook can see the post and its comments.
9 hrs · Like

Lisa Sheridan Common Thanks Janet.
That is unfortunate. If I were considering moving here and wanted to see what the neighborhood was like, I would think twice...especially if I thought differently than the majority. I am embarrassed by it. frown emoticon
9 hrs · Like · 8

Ashli Baucum Agree. There's no reason to get heated.
9 hrs · Like · 1

Janet Brooks Sallis Ashli Baucum, I liked your approach of getting quickly to facts and process rather than becoming mired in speculation and ad hominem attacks. Thank you for doing that.
9 hrs · Like

Ashli Baucum Absolutely. Actions speak louder than words.
9 hrs · Like · 2

Kelly Comerford Janet Brooks Sallis, thank you for this post. I have lived in this neighborhood all my life and I love it. I'm very embarrassed by the comments I've seen in the other posts. If I was new to the area and looking at this group, I am sad to say, I would not want to have these neighbors.
8 hrs · Unlike · 6

Gene Miller I think we are becoming a society that kowtows to the wishes and whims of the minority and the majority is getting fed up.
7 hrs · Like · 5

Alicia Dehart O'Sullivan Janet - I saw the post you are referring to much earlier today, I just went to check the comments after seeing your post. Almost 300 comments. I don't have time to read through all that nonsense - but this does convince me that this board has become too toxic and ridiculous to be associated with. It's been a long time coming, so long East Hill Neighborhood Association, it's been interesting.
7 hrs · Like · 8

Janet Brooks Sallis Gene Miller, that is not really not a helpful comment to the discussion. Why interject with that when you could choose to offer a comment that is more fitting.
7 hrs · Like · 4

Can Imagine I know east hill is an eclectic neighborhood with a varying degree of progressive to conservative (heavily weighted towards conservative it appears), but I love our "hippie chic" where it's allowed to flourish, including those of us who take on the deu...See More
6 hrs · Like · 6

Marlene Parker Part of the magic in East Hill evaporated after reading some of the posts, especially the two implying violence. Very discouraging.
5 hrs · Like · 6

Gene Miller It's a statement Janet addressing my belief in why so many neighbors find his actions and post objectionable.

He is a long time trouble maker and narcissistic publicity seeker that has caused problems at school board and county meetings concerning prayer. See my posts to the East Hill group reference his past actions.
5 hrs · Like · 1

Gene Miller http://wildhunt.org/.../pagan-invocation-makes-waves-in...

Pagan Invocation Makes Waves in the Florida Panhandle | The Wild Hunt
Pagan David Suhor has been making waves in Florida's...
WILDHUNT.ORG
5 hrs · Like · 2

Andrew Roemer I'm just looking forward to what will be the hot topic tomorrow in this forum.
5 hrs · Like · 2

Gene Miller http://m.inweekly.net/wordpress/?p=20872

David Suhor and The Latest Battle Over Prayer | Inweekly
The battle over the separation of church and state is,...
INWEEKLY.NET
5 hrs · Like · 1

Janet Brooks Sallis Gene Miller, thank you for replying and explaining. I've read what you posted. I was familiar with Mr. Suhor before this discussion but am thankful for the refreshers you posted.
I will withhold my assessment of his character, because I don't personal...See More
5 hrs · Like · 6

Gene Miller http://jeffbergoshblog.blogspot.com/.../insight-into-one...

Jeff Bergosh Blog: Insight into One Person's Motivation for Demanding he...
JEFFBERGOSHBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY JEFF BERGOSH
5 hrs · Like · 1

Janet Brooks Sallis Andrew Roemer, it'll be about the observation wheel going on the Jacqueline Harris school property.
5 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Though Gene's intentions were not benevolent, I must thank him for making my work part of the East Hill forum. Activism requires awareness and he is expanding my reach! If you want it straight from the horse's mouth, my blog is anapplebiter.blogspot.com. Check it out, folks! I'll soon be updating it with the posts from this forum - name calling and insults included.

an APPLE Biter's Blog - on the intersection of religion and a free society. Take a bite!
David Suhor an APPLE Biter Agnostic Pagan Pantheist...
ANAPPLEBITER.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY APPLE BITER
4 hrs · Like · Remove Preview

Janet Brooks Sallis I also hope you include screenshots of this current discussion.
4 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor I'll try, but that's a LOT of discussion. I may just do a transcript.
3 hrs · Edited · Like

Ashli Baucum
Ashli Baucum's photo.
3 hrs · Like · 1

Janet Brooks Sallis Screenshots might be easier. You may also need to seek permission to use the comments. I wouldn't want anyone accusing you of misrepresentation.
If your activism cannot be founded on transparency, you are as bad as the people you seek to provoke.
3 hrs · Like · 7




A SECOND POST:


Gene Miller
6 hrs

David Suhor and The Latest Battle Over Prayer | Inweekly
The battle over the separation of church and state is, once again, being waged in a local school district. To quote Yogi Berra, “Déjà vu, all over again.” The new phase began when local jazz musician David Suhor...
M.INWEEKLY.NET
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Meghan Routt Unbelievable.
6 hrs · Like

Lori Starks Moss http://jeffbergoshblog.blogspot.com/.../insight-into-one...

Jeff Bergosh Blog: Insight into One Person's Motivation for Demanding he...
JEFFBERGOSHBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY JEFF BERGOSH
6 hrs · Unlike · 2

David Suhor So EHNA's facebook is now a platform to discuss people who live in East Hill? I have posted all this in the 'net, so I'm not ashamed. But why does it deserve attention on EHNA's page?
4 hrs · Like

Janet Brooks Sallis David Suhor, these are all public posts pertaining to the same type of issue you raised, yourself, in the group. The EHNA is not responsible for the posts of the members of the group.
Publicly discussing your public (documented) activism is inevitable.
4 hrs · Like

David Suhor Alright., In fact, thank you for making my work part of the East Hill forum. Activism requires awareness and you are expanding my reach! My blog is anapplebiter.blogspot.com. Check it out, folks!

an APPLE Biter's Blog - on the intersection of religion and a free society. Take a bite!
David Suhor an APPLE Biter Agnostic Pagan Pantheist...
ANAPPLEBITER.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY APPLE BITER
4 hrs · Like · Remove Preview

McCall Richardson Tool!
3 hrs · Unlike · 2

Facebook Freak-Out Ensues over Bayview Cross

Here's the post that started the local uproar.  I've include all the comments made in response, but not the pics.  When it got overwhelming and correcting folks became pointless, I deleted the post.  

By an overwhelming margin, these FB folks oppose my efforts, reflecting the privilege and paranoia of people who realize they are breaking the law, but don't give a damn... because Jesus.  Of course, there are others who agree (many wrote me privately), but will not comment here.  Enjoy.


David Suhor
23 hrs
"The Cross" in Bayview Park was erected in the 1940s or 50s (date unknown) by the Junior Chamber of Commerce (Jaycees). It was the centerpiece for the once-popular Easter Sunday services, held there for decades and recently resumed by McIllwain Presbyterian Church. It is owned and maintained by the City of Pensacola, who keep it up year round. As I understand, the cross has no historical significance (unlike the beach cross) and no secular purpose.
I have asked Parks and Rec head Brian Cooper to meet to discuss removing the cross, perhaps to be returned on Easter Sunday or whenever a church rents the park for services. He has declined to discuss it. The matter was referred to the City Attorney.
What do you think? Is it proper for the City to place and/or keep a purely religious symbol on public property? Does this represent an unnecessary entanglement of church and state? Would your answer be different if this were a giant Star of David, a Muslim Crescent, or an icon of some other faith (one you don't agree with)? Should the City should act now, or wait for a judge's order?
10 people like this.

David Suhor My opinion is obvious. It serves no government purpose, so I'd like to see it removed... most of the year anyway. I don't think it's in the City's best interest to place and maintain religious symbols. Let the churches do that. We are a diverse community and the cross does not unite us. It reminds us of who they a select few think is in charge. In doing so, it blurs the line between church and state. When I see it, I am reminded that only one religion is afforded this privilege. Moreover, I envision the brutal human sacrifice that is said to have taken place on Calvary. To me, that should not be honored with a monument. Like Christmas manger scenes at the courthouse, this is a losing issue for any local government. Unless we are willing to allow all religions an equal opportunity to keep monuments on public land, this one should be removed. The City is aware of the issue and they do not need to wait for a lawsuit - which is being explored. That would be a costly exercise in futility, with the same result. That said, I have no problem with the cross being kept by McIlwain or some other church and erected for the duration of Easter services when held there. A metal sleeve at the base could make this a functional, versatile platform for various people to place symbols, religious or secular, whenever they rent this part of the park and the adjacent stage. If you feel the same, I encourage you to contact your Councilperson or Brian Cooper, head of the City Parks Department. Let's make is so everyone feels welcome in our park, year round, regardless of religious affiliation.
23 hrs · Edited · Like · 5

David M Nobles How can that beautiful cross offend anyone ? I vote to keep it !
21 hrs · Like · 24

Heather Cutts It is a part of East Hill, it's been there for most of our lives unless you were born before the 50's and in that case you aren't as likely to be on fb commenting - well maybe some. At any rate, it's clearly not meant as a symbol to offend, and I would not be offended to see another religious symbol added as it would only be fair. For me, it's more a part of East Hill's history. What if the neighborhood association took ownership and up keep?
21 hrs · Like · 20

Bobby Dunn What is the intent of your post? If people agree with you, you will surely share these comments with the city officials. And if East Hill residents want to keep it, how will you respond? Will you comply?
20 hrs · Like · 22

Camille Drake So historical significance now is the measuring stick used to determine if a cross stays or goes? What is the "upkeep" you are referring to - I can't imagine there is much to maintaining it. If it were an icon of a religion that is not mine I would not gain anything by removing it. However if it brings you joy to see it taken down I'm sure you can make a case to make it happen. A lot of people would surely miss it.
20 hrs · Like · 7

Bud Mitchell It sounds as if you are using expense as a reason for removing something just so you can have your way to step on my rights. I am sure it would cost more to retrofit it and store it so once removed you would use that excuse. So I guess you will have to file your lawsuit.
20 hrs · Like · 6

Thomas L Good Keep the cross
20 hrs · Like · 10

Richard Christine If historical significance is the measure.
The Star of David or the Cross wouldn't bother me since both played a significant role in the establishment of this nation. Or at the least their doctrines.
I'm sure there are those who would argue that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence substantiate both sides of the coin but a reading of the founders biographies would show that the Christian belief was the predominate mindset of the day. (The use of creator, etc, was used so as not sanction a specific state religion. All one has to do is to go directly to the delegate discussions pertaining to the wording of the First Amendment in order to ascertain the context and original intent of the final wording.)
Its also a fact that Tristan de Luna 's contingent included Christian missionaries when he first set foot on our beaches.
That said I would think whether you're a Christian or not, the Cross carries considerable historical significance.
Now then... if finding something offensive is the measure than we'd better run up the white flag.
19 hrs · Like · 7

April Braecklein I love going to Bayview as seeing this cross there ! It has been there forever and I feel it should be kept there , as I'm sure a lot of East Hill residents believe ... It's not there to offend anyone , if people don't want to see it , they just keep on going pass it ... But for the ones that do like it , that do visit it , don't punish them ... To me there are other things in the world to stress over , other than a cross that's been in this park for years !!!!
18 hrs · Like · 14

Stuart Edward Merrick Keep it there. It does no harm and occupies very little space.
18 hrs · Like · 7

Dave Kelley David Suhor, you sir have too much time on your hands to have to be concerned with such things. What next, remove the cross from a church steeple? Remove the United States of America flag from my front porch? Tell me how I must dress when I walk down the street? You are obviously not a true American.
18 hrs · Edited · Like · 22

Trisha Russell Idoni You have to be kidding me?
18 hrs · Like · 9

Nancy Huggins Peters For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18. That is in the BIBLE, which is probably also offensive to you. What will you say to GOD about this matter when you see His face....and you most certainly will one of these days. I am praying for your eyes to be opened to the Truth and your spirit to be saved before it is too late!
18 hrs · Like · 11

Sammy Hillcrest I couldn't care less either way.
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
18 hrs · Like · 16

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
18 hrs · Unlike · 14

Glenn Parker Instead of seeking out what brings joy to your life, find those things that you dislike and destroy them. This at the cost of others. We do live in a selfish society!
18 hrs · Like · 13

Janie Myrick How often are you in the park that it offends you so much? Maintenance would involve weedeating at the base i would assume. Leave it alone and pick your battles-give to Manna instead of giving your money to an attorney.
18 hrs · Like · 19

Crystal Lynn Huber This is ridiculous. Keep it. It's not hurting anyone. If it's offensive, don't take it down. Erect other religious icons.
18 hrs · Like · 6

Brent Isbell Keep the cross! I see no reason to remove it.
18 hrs · Like · 7

Jacob Head Good grief..... This is getting ridiculous.
18 hrs · Like · 9

Julie Heymann Campbell Really? This is getting ridiculous. What is happening to people these days?
18 hrs · Like · 6

Anne Catherine What is going on? Why have you taken this upon yourself to discuss with the city? Why wouldn't you discuss it first-not after?
18 hrs · Like · 5

Andrew Myers I believe you already see the reaction you will get from most of the community. As a Christian, I enjoy seeing the Cross and in the past have often used it as a place of meditation and reflection. It is a part of my childhood having grown up all my life in east hill.

As a citizen, I can see both sides of the argument. Do I believe that our (or any) Governmental body should install and maintain religious symbols? Not unless there is a historic significance.

Does this qualify as historic (in the timeline of east hill)? Maybe.

If the maintenance of the Cross is what offends you, I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to donate in order to fund it's maintenance.

Should it be removed? I think we are letting ourselves get slightly carried away with what offends us. If it was a Star of David and it had been there since the 50's, I personally would not be offended by that.

Should we as a people support new religious symbols being installed by the government on public property? No, that would be stupid.

Just my two cents.
18 hrs · Like · 14

Patricia Angel What the object is, is in the eye of the beholder...may I suggest you view it as a geometric shape, and move on.
18 hrs · Like · 12

Mary Virginia Nugent I cannot believe this post. What is wrong with people! Do you not have enough to do in your life? I am so over being overly PC! What happened to being civil and courteous. Gone! This is proof. Your offended? I'm offended!!! The color of your house offends me! I can't believe you are driving a Japanese car! After what they did to us, really! Should I go on?… Leave that cross alone and find something to do!
18 hrs · Like · 13

Crystal Lynn Huber
Crystal Lynn Huber's photo.
17 hrs · Like · 5

Crystal Lynn Huber
Crystal Lynn Huber's photo.
17 hrs · Like · 5

Dave Kelley Mary Virginia Nugent....great point. This poor sap, "bless his heart" is offended by something and demands removal. Well, in the same way, we are offended by him, so shouldn't he now be removed? Let's tag his posts as offensive. There are more ways to skin a cat....so to speak
17 hrs · Like · 9

Meghan Routt I knew this is why you were asking so many questions a month ago! The cross is the most beautiful thing at our park. I can not believe anyone would ever want to take it down. you know what...if that is what you want. I want to meet you there and watch you take it down by yourself! don't be a coward and have the city do it for you! you do it with your own guilty hands!
17 hrs · Like · 6

Camille Drake David I get your argument on the basis of separation of church and state. I'm sure there is a church willing to buy that space from the city in order to keep the cross up. The part of your argument I can't see is how the cross would somehow make some people feel not welcome at the park. Let's remember this is not a kkk monument we are talking about. If you see the cross as a symbol of who is "in charge" or some type of exclusivity, you are interpreting the symbol wrong. The cross represents love. Love for the whole world. Every single person on earth including you. You may have some negative feelings about Christianity and I sense maybe that's why you want to remove it but I want to be clear that the cross does not exclude anyone.
17 hrs · Like · 9

Dena Bullard Hill All it takes is one person. Get a hobby. Seriously? East Hill is a sea of perfectly blended people who live here for a reason. For the most part, we are very well rounded and allow people and their beliefs to be without judgement. If you don't want to see the cross remove yourself from seeing it. Obviously I say keep it!
17 hrs · Like · 12

Cooper Dalrymple Unlike everyone else on here, I definitely think that the cross at Bayview should be removed. Religious symbols in government have become a commonplace sight in the America government since the 20th century. Though there is an unfortunately high percentage of Christians in the US, I think that we should finally start to move back to a secular state as with the rest of the developed world. Also, as being not a part of the system of religion, I've felt very uncomfortable for a long time around that religious symbol in Bayview, and I'd hate to think how people of other religious affiliations feel about the matter.
17 hrs · Unlike · 3

Meghan Routt "The Cross" in Bayview Park was erected in the 1940s or 50s (date unknown) by the Junior Chamber of Commerce (Jaycees). It was the centerpiece for the once-popular Easter Sunday services, held there for decades and recently resumed by McIllwain Presbyterian Church."- that is history in my book! what is your definition of history?
17 hrs · Like · 4

Crystal Lynn Huber Why would you feel uncomfortable around it?
17 hrs · Like · 2

Patricia Angel "Unfortunately high percentage of Christians in the U.S.?" Bawahaha just out of curiosity what is a tolerable percentage?
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5

Crystal Lynn Huber I have pagan, wiccan, Buddhist, and Jewish friends. And atheist friends. And literally, none of them feel offended by being around a cross. While they do feel they should be able to express their beliefs more, they wouldn't want to take away other people's joy. Instead of working towards a negative and stripping communities of their uniqueness, why can't we as a community, work towards a positive, and add to the uniqueness by adding more religious symbols and icons. This is in a neighborhood where majority of people want the cross to stay. Surely, we're going to band together to make sure this doesn't get taken down. In retrospect, you're taking away from our rights. The city and government don't go there to congregate and work out matters. It's a public area that is vast. I've been many times and I actually have never seen this cross. Or at least wasn't paying a lot of attention to my surroundings.
17 hrs · Like · 6

Dave Kelley The right to religious freedom is granted by the Constitution of the United States. That allows us to practice, or not, our faith without persecution. Buh-bye David
17 hrs · Like · 3

Cooper Dalrymple It's not necessarily a problem of it being a cross. The problem is that it is a cross in a *public* park.
17 hrs · Unlike · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber So throw in some star of davids, pentagrams and a sculpture of baphoment ans buddha and call it a day.
17 hrs · Unlike · 4

Crystal Lynn Huber And, not ans.
17 hrs · Like

Dave Kelley Cooper, the point is, it is in a "PUBLIC" park. It is not a government building. It belongs to the people.
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5

Andrew Roemer And if it belongs to the people, then let's take a vote. If the responses to this post is a microcosm of what an official vote will be, then it seems that the cross will stay.
17 hrs · Edited · Like · 5

Mary Virginia Nugent And when did the minority (numbers, not race), become the rule in this country? I live where? If you do not like the cross and Bayview Park, move to the west side of town. It is perfect for you.
17 hrs · Like · 3

Tyler Donati
Tyler Donati's photo.
17 hrs · Like · 25

Matt Deavenport As a non-religious individual who walks by the cross everyday when walking my dogs, the cross does not bother me or offend me. If anything, it naturally adds a pleasant effect to the landscape. I think instead of spending effort and money on removing the cross, it would be great to revamp that 'stage' that sits in front of it and use it for live concerts or movie nights every once in a while.....(when it isn't 100 degrees outside!)
16 hrs · Like · 17

Phil Woolley Oh please. Get a grip.
16 hrs · Like · 6

Meghan Routt It has historical value to my family. We go down there with the kids every Easter and plant flowers to remember the one who died for our sins. "His"story.
16 hrs · Like · 4

Harris Turner "Should the City act now, or wait for a judge's order?"
16 hrs · Like

Caroline Hartnett Tyler Donati, you crack me up. I am joining you with the popcorn on this one.
16 hrs · Like · 4

Trisha Russell Idoni You guys have entirely too much time on your hands to worry about a cross that has been in a park for over 70 years... do you just look for stuff to complain about or does it just come natural to pick apart anything that you don't agree with?
16 hrs · Like · 8

Harris Turner If nothing else, it serves as a lightning rod and must remain at the park for safety purposes. Think of it as a lightning rod with wings if it offends you.
16 hrs · Like · 10

John David Ellis I'm more upset by the condemned community center that sits idle. Can we talk about that?
16 hrs · Like · 12

Matt Deavenport I think there are plans to revamp it John David Ellis, I'd love to see the set plans for the park! Anyone have a link or the know?
16 hrs · Like · 1

Barri Beecher Really? I don't own a boat and neither do X% of city residents. Get rid of the boat launch and dock so it doesn't have to be maintained. I own dogs who are too small for the dog beach at Bayview and even if I had a water dog, I would be afraid to let it in that gross water. Get rid of that "beach" because $$ upkeep. I don't play tennis anymore. Get rid of the tennis courts because probably only a handful of people (who aren't even city residents) use it anyway. Who plays horseshoes anymore? Get rid of that area. Right? I'm going to let everyone know what I think, what I'm going to do about being offended (triumphantly announce that I'm tired of the city wasting "our" money so I'm going to do us all a favor and sue them as an entity and have them spend $$$ on court fees, divert the city attorney away from issues that truly need his attention, etc.) but I'll ask my fellow citizens what they think, read the feedback, ignore the majority because they don't agree with me...and follow through with my plan anyway because 'Merica, my civil liberties, I have money to waste, I'm offended...wow. Thanks for nothing.
15 hrs · Like · 32

Crystal Lynn Huber Barri Beecher just won the internet
15 hrs · Like · 5

Heather Cutts Barri Beecher you hit the nail on the head sister!
15 hrs · Like · 5

Meghan Routt Does David actually live in east hill? Just wondering....
15 hrs · Like · 4

Matt Deavenport I think the intent is religious freedom and allowing others to use the site for their religious gatherings and not just Christians. With that said, it was horribly articulated and focused too much on assaulting Christians which will obviously fail. Again, let's get the city to focus on more pressing matters within or community!
15 hrs · Like · 4

April Braecklein Yes , like all the speeders who don't actually live in the neighborhood but use it to get from point a - point b ... That's a great start for this community
15 hrs · Like · 3

Jim Deaver Get a hobby!
Jim Deaver's photo.
15 hrs · Like · 5

Jennifer Shepherd Drummond I am not addressing this issue in the comment. I'm going to address someone I love. I have always loved Barri Beecher. Signed: her two oldest boys former Youth Minister (that's me, in case you didn't follow). And damn did they grow up GREAT! Go ahead and tell her oldest son about how the cross offends you while he is saving lives on AND off duty as an EMT.
15 hrs · Like · 3

Jennifer Shepherd Drummond One of our businesses is a Paint Contracting business. We publicly volunteer right now to maintain that area of the park. We will weed eat once a month, paint the cross once a year, and do whatever else is necessary. I'll find out, but if anyone knows who I need to contact about doing this to save the city's money please let me know now. I guess we will find out if this really is about David Suhor's concern for the city's money or something else. Christ teaches me to love, solve problems, and do good. David I would also like to invite you to lunch, coffee, a drink, and/or church with my husband and me.
15 hrs · Like · 36

Meghan Routt Awesome Jennifer!
15 hrs · Like · 4

Ashli Baucum So...my neighbors are kinda awesome.
15 hrs · Like · 5

Jennifer Shepherd Drummond We don't live in East Hill Ashli Baucum, but according to God's Word, we are all neighbors.
15 hrs · Like · 6

Crystal Lynn Huber Jennifer Shepherd Drummond has also won the internet
15 hrs · Like · 9

Ashli Baucum I've printed out the post and comments just in case "Parks and Rec head Brian Cooper" is interested in the community opinion. I needed to stop by City Hall anyway. smile emoticon
14 hrs · Like · 7

Julie Heymann Campbell Thanks Ashli Baucum.
14 hrs · Like

Cyndey Szlaga Joyner Well somebody decided to stir up trouble. I am not religious and I walk by that cross often. It doesn't offend me. I understand his point since the city maintains it blah, blah, blah. However, has anyone else been offended and complained? You have someone who has volunteered to maintain it that is not with the government. End of church and state issue. Someone want to put up a Star of David? Knock yourself out. Islam symbol? You can try. These days probably won't last long. Sit Buddha out there if you want. Find something more pressing to expend your energy, sir. Hey, go volunteer at Semmes school. It's a D school in our neighborhood. Get the city or county to give them some help. Geez. And do you even live in East Hill? I haven't seen that answered. As long as it's non-violent we can respect beliefs. It's one nation under God but nobody said which God. Mine is just plain spirituality. I take no offense at this symbol. It gives others peace. I, as a human, respect that. Now go do something useful for said humans.
14 hrs · Edited · Like · 10

Jennifer Shepherd Drummond Cyndey Szlaga Joyner, you made me and the hubs LOL.
14 hrs · Like · 1

Michelle Nevels-Stacks Jennifer Shepherd Drummond
14 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Interesting reactions, mostly what I expected. Let me clear some things up. 1) I am not 'offended' by the cross. I just don't understand why it remains permanently on public property. Though I find many parts of Christianity objectionable (not 'all about love'), I am not bothered by seeing crosses on churches or other private property. That is everyone's right. 2) It's also not about maintenance. However, clearly the City is maintaining it, which means they are spending our money to keep religious symbols in good repair. If I am correct, they have also replaced the cross. Again, our tax money should not go to religious purposes. 3) There is no history here except the Easter Sunday services, which are exclusively Christian. Our government should not be choosing to honor one religion and not others. 4) If the cross should stay, I would agree to placing other religious symbols alongside. I doubt that would be allowed. I may ask. If it did happen, I would expect the same treatment for all religions, meaning the city erects and maintains all such symbols. But would the local Christians accept an equal size Muslim crescent, Star of David, emblem of Scientology, Satanic pentagram or Atheist A? Or would THAT be offensive? 5) Gratefully, public opinion will not be the final arbiter of this issue. Courts have consistently ruled that placing purely religious monuments on public land violates the Constitution by entangling church and state. Just look at the state capitol and Christmas manger scenes. Where one is allowed, all are allowed. I'd like to see the City act properly to avoid such legal expenses. 6) I'm sure I could find people willing to remove the cross for free.
Though not popular, the right thing to do would be to donate the cross to someone willing to place it on private land. Sure, local Christians want it there, because it shows favor to your faith. But that's not how the Constitution works. Were it a pentagram, I'm sure you'd all be clamoring for separation of church and state. I believe our government should not offer privilege to the popular religion, to the exclusion of others. That happens enough when the local councils, school board, etc start with Christian prayers. I want our government to be neutral on religious issues. That way all are treated equally. The cross is not in any way neutral, so the easiest solution is to take it down. As I said, if you want to put it up when you rent that space, that seems reasonable. But year-round, the cross represents Christians only, not our City as a whole. Look at the case law. It all supports removing the cross from public property - or at least giving equal presence to other similar symbols - which could quickly become even more divisive.
PS Yes, I live in East Hill. No, I did not initiate this complaint. Because I am an activist for church/state separation and because I am interested in history and I have ties to legal resources, someone brought this to me. I have tried very hard to speak with the Parks department. They will not meet with me and they are not forthcoming with historical and maintenance records. They also will not defend the cross or reveal their position - probably because they can not legally justify its presence. Just today, I reached out to the mayor and city attorney for their positions on the question.
13 hrs · Edited · Like · 1

Erin Colleen Griffin There is also a memorial next to it celebrating a member of the Bonifay family that has absolutely nothing to do with me and I have resided in East Hill since 1989... Don't I have rights?! How dare this city allow me to ride my bike past some memorial that has some outdated slolem ski attached to it... Stupid history. Stupid memorials that were erected and have become a significant part of a neighborhood community long before I was even born...

While I understand that historical significance is not the only defining value of Pensacola, per the Mayor's decision to remove the Confederate flag, that cross with its concrete seats and video surveillance has meaning that bolstered enough community support to have it built.

Being a politically correct liberal with a house full of cats and self-righteousness is a huge part of the East Hill community... It's who a lot of us are. But the slippery slope of removing historic (yes... The 1940s makes it a historical and nostalgic monument) memorials in the oldest city in this country is concerning.
13 hrs · Like · 3

Matt Deavenport You can look up his name on the appraiser...he does live in East Hill (barely).

What is the cost benefit of converting it to something that would allow other symbols to be put up? What about the safety related to that? How much does the city really spend on 'maintaining' it?

Once again, you are trying to justify by attacking a group of people which is quite hypocritical.

Please don't waste our tax payer money on a lawsuit for this. I'd like to see it go towards less frivolous things than one person on a one-person mission to 'separate church and state'.
13 hrs · Like

Cyndey Szlaga Joyner Maybe we should just ignore him. Most agitators move on when that happens. We are thrilling his tiny brain right now. And I say that as an anti organized religion (not real popular in the South) person. I am no religion and a historian but the cross is bothering no one (unlike this little dude).
13 hrs · Unlike · 7

Tyler Donati I have nothing to say about the argument at hand, but I would like to add a tidbit of knowledge.

If you're typing on a PC or laptop, you can hold down shift + enter to separate paragraphs when typing Facebook comments.

It's not an issue on mobile devices, because there's a return button.

Carry on...
13 hrs · Edited · Like · 10

Camille Drake I look forward to a church in the area purchasing a 1x1 square of land where that cross is erected so that we can leave it in place without breaking the rules. I have spent many thoughtful hours sitting under that cross. Also had my first kiss there and also got into trouble there for the first time. It is historical and meaningful to many residents. I pray that the negativity you seem to feel when you see the cross can be replaced with motivation to go out and do something truly helpful in the community.
13 hrs · Like · 4

Caroline Hartnett I think it was the Bonifays who used to maintain the ski slolom on the bayou when I was little. The Bonifay memorial is a big deal....he was a pioneer of his time I believe....
13 hrs · Unlike · 2

Dave Kelley "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I translate this ridiculousness created by David Suhor falls in line with "promote the general Welfare" [the state of being or doing well especially in relation to happiness, well-being, or success]

So - if public (or general) opinion is that of keeping the cross, then so be it. If he has the audacity to take this to the courts to waste our tax money on such a frivolous case, and our court will hear the case, we need to vote out those who have participated. They obviously do not have concern for the "general Welfare" and are inept at translating our laws and freedoms.
13 hrs · Like · 2

Erin Colleen Griffin The Bonifay memorial is a huge deal. It is a significant part of the heart of Bayview... And so is that cross.
13 hrs · Like · 3

Jeff Matthews
Jeff Matthews's photo.
13 hrs · Unlike · 7

Meghan Routt Hahaha grumpy cat!
13 hrs · Like · 2

Heather Cutts Let's move the topic on to even more controversial talk 1) gay marriage and 2) confederate flag. Since we are on the topic of religion and politics. It's funny, to stay friendly with your neighbors one should always avoid religion and politics... If you notice, he did nothing but bring us all together on this, with the exception of one other kid, everyone else agrees on this! Pretty cool. I don't know what it would take, or who specifically I need to contact, but if I can purchase that area where the cross is erect, I will do that. Also I will volunteer to maintain the cross by painting and keeping up with the grass and such. Hey, maybe you guys can all put a cross up in your yard to show support. Let's really show them! I'm Methodist, so every Easter I have my cross in the yard.

I don't live in East Hill any longer, we literally just moved a few months ago. However my my mother in law, brother in law, and a lot of my friends still live there, so I still feel a part of the neighborhood.
12 hrs · Like · 6

James McKenzie This is what the First Amendment law is on this topic:

http://law.justia.com/.../11-religious-displays-on...

Religious Displays on Government Property
Justia Free Database of the US Constitution annotated...
LAW.JUSTIA.COM
12 hrs · Unlike · 1

Ashli Baucum Just delivered a letter and two copies of this forum to City Hall.
I was told that the cross was donated to the park, is occasionally volunteer painted, and has never been found to be a nuisance.
I love that our community is so rational and fair about this. Way to stand up, East Hill!
12 hrs · Edited · Like · 25

April Braecklein That's awesome Ashli Baucum !!!!
12 hrs · Like · 5

Crystal Lynn Huber Tyler Donati unless your phone had a crack on the screen where it makes a small part of the touch screen unresponsive.
12 hrs · Like · 1

Heather Cutts Thanks Ashli Baucum for doing that!
12 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber And your argument was already made invalid because several members of the community already said they were okay with erecting other symbols.
12 hrs · Like

David Suhor Google the Mt. Soledad Cross case. "The cross is an exclusively Christian symbol, and it dominates the memorial in such a way that an observer is left to conclude that Christianity is favored by the government." Like that cross, the one in Bayview Park serves no secular purpose. It is a religious symbol favored by Christians alone and erected to accommodate religious services (once a year, but there year-round). Maybe its 'harmless', but how does its location on public land not violate the 1st amendment establishment clause? <cue crickets>
Ashli, that's interesting, because I have been asking those same questions for weeks. I was not able to get an answer. Could you please message me with details of who donated the cross and when? And who does the volunteer maintenance, including replacing the cross, as has been done? I doubt this is all done without the City's involvement.
12 hrs · Edited · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber You're beating a dead horse David Suhor
12 hrs · Like · 2

Dave Kelley I guess ignorance replaces the "greater good." Shameful
12 hrs · Like · 2

Sara Herrand Sutherland
Sara Herrand Sutherland's photo.
12 hrs · Like · 6

Dave Kelley Sara Herrand Sutherland he may be "offended" by said tree and request a court hearing to remove it.
12 hrs · Like · 6

Crystal Lynn Huber Everyone is winning the internet.
12 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
12 hrs · Like · 3

Erin Colleen Griffin Always fancy...
12 hrs · Like · 1

Bobby Dunn http://www.pnj.com/.../troy-moon-column-school.../16501135/

Troy Moon: School board spars with pagan
A Pensacola pagan is sparring with government officials about invocations.
PNJ.COM
12 hrs · Like · 1

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
12 hrs · Like · 6

David M Nobles I love living in East Hill !
12 hrs · Like · 4

Crystal Lynn Huber HE JUST GIVES A BAD NAME TO ALL PAGANS OMG
12 hrs · Like

Dave Kelley Evidently it is okay for Suhor to be a sue whore and push his religion onto others, but not for anyone else to embrace their faith and belief. http://www.pnj.com/.../troy-moon-column-school.../16501135/

Troy Moon: School board spars with pagan
A Pensacola pagan is sparring with government officials about invocations.
PNJ.COM
12 hrs · Like · 4

Ashli Baucum David Suhor, all of my information comes from simply walking into the office.
According to the department, you can't force them to remove it, and even if you did push the issue, they would circulate fliers for a public meeting on the issue so that citizens could be involved in the deciding process.
You're not the first and you probably won't be the last.
12 hrs · Like · 9

Barri Beecher LMAO @ sue whore. 🏻❄️❄️❄️
12 hrs · Like · 5

Jessica C Ayers I once was a Jaycee smile emoticon
12 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber Jessica C Ayers you can testify lol
12 hrs · Like

Jessica C Ayers Lol nah I'll stay out of it .. Just my two cents lol
11 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber Lol just a thought
11 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
11 hrs · Like · 3

Bernard Pennington Just convert one of the park grills to a David Suhor Memorial Altar for Pagan Sacrifice, burn a Rebel flag on it, and have a Fish Fry.
11 hrs · Edited · Like · 10

Glenn Parker Mr Suhor, you referenced the Mt Soledad Cross but you failed to realize that it still stands. And, the fact that after more than 25 years of someone like you trying to have it removed, have failed.
11 hrs · Edited · Like · 8

Lori Starks Moss ^^^OMG Gwen! "Bitch Mittens" Bwaaaaahaaaaaaaa (I think I just peed a little!)
11 hrs · Like · 3

Heather Cutts Bernard Pennington that sounds like a good idea, but I am worried that frying fish may offend people who own aquariums and actually have fish for "pets". Also annual Sea World pass owners may not agree.
11 hrs · Like · 3

Bernard Pennington We will fry only invasive species.
11 hrs · Like · 1

Heather Cutts That may also offend invasive people???
11 hrs · Like · 3

Cynthia Booker As I believe David Suhor clearly stated, he is not offended by the cross but believes it should not be on public property, but rather on privately-owned property. I think there are plenty who agree with him, as I do, but maybe they are not members of this group, or have not read this page lately, or are keeping their opinion to themself out of reluctance to being attacked here. The reason one of our founding principles is separation of church and state is so that members of the majority relegion cannot persecute members of a minority, or no, relegion. And isn't this the same group that recently had a page devoted to how to keep preachers from knocking on their doors?
11 hrs · Unlike · 4

Bernard Pennington He's made his points known and now the community is speaking. If others choose not to do so, the community has spoken.
11 hrs · Edited · Like · 2

Lori Starks Moss I have to agree on the separation issue, and l highly doubt any city/county/State governmental body would ever maintain a Buddha statue or giant Pentagram. But I'd be highly opposed to wasting any much more expensive city resources to battle it out in court. Although not in East Hill, I've wondered about the church services that occur on Sundays at the Gulf Breeze Middle School...(that being said, I live three or so blocks from Bayview Park, I've been there hundreds of times and I never once even noticed that cross!)
11 hrs · Edited · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber Keeping jehovahs witnesses and Mormons from knocking on your door is a different situation from this. They'll wake the baby. Or maybe someone works the night shift and sleeps during the day. Or you have dogs that get overly excited by the doorbell. Different than this. Unlike the situations listed preciously, this cross is really not hurting anyone.
11 hrs · Like · 2

April Braecklein Again , I feel as if there are more serious issues then the cross at the park , that has been there for years , not hurting a single person , if you don't like it , there is plenty more of the park you can go to ! Just because most have spoken and believe it should stay there does not mean anyone is ' attacking him ' he asked for the opinions he's receiving ! If he doesn't like it then he shouldn't have asked what people thought !!!!!!!
11 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Glenn Parker, the Soleded Cross is a war memorial and is STILL ruled unconstitutional. It will come down, despite efforts to keep it up. The Bayview Cross serves no secular purpose, historical or otherwise. Other than pleasing Christians and standing as a backdrop for Easter services, I'm not sure why the Bayview cross is on public property. Can you tell me what government purpose it serves?
Cynthia Booker, gratefully, the name-calling and misrepresentations don't 'offend' me. But I am grateful for voices of reason like yours. I'm sorry people resort to pettiness when they feel Christian dominance in governance is under attack. Regardless of public opinion, the Constitution's establishment clause is on my side. For that reason, I will continue to fight religious privilege in government affairs.
11 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber Stop using your religion as a crutch and a means to make profit.
11 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington For what it matters, I am an atheist. If a new cross were planned, I would oppose it, but this cross has been there a long time and is a community fixture. I will stand with my neighbors here and oppose rabble rousing. I tried to be supportive of Mr. Suhor's positions, but his antics and techniques serve to tear down, not enhance. His appears to be an ego driven mission more than community improvement.
10 hrs · Like · 9

Crystal Lynn Huber Bernard Pennington, we usually butt heads in the forums here. But thank you.
10 hrs · Like · 2

Bernard Pennington Back at you, Crystal Lynn Huber
10 hrs · Like

David Suhor Bernard, would you oppose a Pentagram being placed alongside, for equality's sake? Why does the fact that the cross was placed there (clearly for religious purposes) maybe 70 years ago make a difference? How about it just goes up on Easter? If they'd agree, I could make it removable/replacable at no expense to the City.
10 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber And what about if couples want to have a wedding or engagement photoshoot there? Are they going to have to wait until Easter?
10 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Crystal Lynn Huber Ps. I'm sure this city is going to support us.
10 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest There is no shortage of crosses in Pensacola, Crystal. Just saying. Or they could bring their own cross. Jesus did.
10 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington Sir, why does anything that has existed for decades have significance? Because it HAS lasted and has taken on a meaning greater than the original intent. If you want to debate symbology, meet me at the cross, bring refreshments and let's talk.
10 hrs · Like · 3

David Suhor They can have a wedding shoot there anytime. If they want to rent the space, they can even re-erect the cross. Year-round, it's only there to show religious favoritism. Why else would it be on public land?
10 hrs · Like

Harris Turner Can we talk about the incredibly high brunch prices in this city?
10 hrs · Like · 7

Bernard Pennington Let's vote.
10 hrs · Like · 1

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 3

Harris Turner $12 FOR A BELGIAN WAFFLE!?
10 hrs · Like · 4

Bernard Pennington And I'm serious about a personal discussion if you want to learn about symbology. I'm not typing that much.
10 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Bernard... like confederate flags, because they have always been there? There comes a time when we can and should correct our mistakes. In this case, this mistake stands against the establishment of religion by our local government. We don't vote on Constitutional matters. Otherwise, the south would still have segregation, miscegenation laws, and marriage for opposite genders only.
10 hrs · Like · 1

Jessica C Ayers Hope it's good Harris
10 hrs · Like

Lori Starks Moss Now that's ridiculous! It's a waffle!
10 hrs · Like · 3

Bernard Pennington Let me present it this way: We tear down the cross, how many are happy, how many unhappy?
10 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 1

Bari Ann or... you could get a hobby and not focus so much energy on looking for things like this to shake your fist at and stand on a soap box over... knitting, fishing, needlepoint, raising emu, collecting stamps... ????
10 hrs · Like · 4

Lori Starks Moss I want an emu!
10 hrs · Like · 3

Bari Ann i think the world would be a better place with more emus! More emus less opinions!!!
10 hrs · Like · 4

Lori Starks Moss I take that back. I don't like birds. I want an alpaca. I don't know why I get them confused.
10 hrs · Like · 3

Nancy Huggins Peters David Suhor that empty place in your heart is one that only Jesus can fill.
10 hrs · Unlike · 2

Jessica C Ayers Bahah I didn't think an emu was a bird either . I was thinking lama
10 hrs · Edited · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Lori Starks Moss I had a traumatic ostrich experience as a child. Emus are like ostriches. Alpacas and llamas are pretty similar in the same way smile emoticon
10 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest Alpaca, emu..... sounds the same. smile emoticon
10 hrs · Like · 2

Harris Turner
Harris Turner's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Bari Ann the fact that we can't all get along over emus and alpaca just shows we will never be able to be in agreement over the important things in life... no emu = no world peace
10 hrs · Like · 3

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 1

Lori Starks Moss Know Emu, Know Peace...isn't that a Weird Al song?
10 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber And how much will they have to a for the re erecting the cross?
10 hrs · Like

Bari Ann lori for the win
10 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber Pay* why is my phone being weird?
10 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Lori Starks Moss They could give it some Viagra, it's free on Obamacare.
10 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest I'm so glad you made Tha erection joke..... you know how badly I wanted to.
10 hrs · Like · 2

Lori Starks Moss I couldn't help myself!
10 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Crystal - nothing, bring it over and return it when done. Sound reasonable? If OK, suggest it to Brian Cooper of Parks dept. Erect is correct - especially for those of you with a boner for Jesus.
10 hrs · Like

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 3

Lori Starks Moss Cats and alpacas! Let's turn the cross into a petting zoo! (So long as there aren't ostriches...)
10 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest Would you like french cries with that?
10 hrs · Like

Lori Starks Moss
Lori Starks Moss's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Jacob, I don't think they can. Their only arguments are specious, vacuous or grade-school lever petty. I'm enjoying it.
10 hrs · Edited · Like

Becca Beaty Leonard " I want our government to be neutral on religious issues." -David Suhor
Unfortunately, I don't think that is a choice you sir get to make. Our nation was founded as a Christian nation.

“This is a Christian nation” – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892

Are you going to ask the US Treasury to implement new coins and bills next?....how about the National Anthem?

Did you know the Washington monument has “Praise be to God" engraved on the cap? In the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgements carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: “Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26; 30:30; Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39), “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7), “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence,” and “In God We Trust”, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo – “Praise be to God” – is engraved on the monument’s capstone.
Isn't this a "public" park?

In the United States Capitol the declaration “In God We Trust” is prominently displayed in both the United States House and Senate Chambers.

The list goes on and on and on.....
10 hrs · Edited · Like · 5

Bari Ann no i really mean that the trend in scavenger hunting things to be offended by is whats ridiculous .... we don't have hobbies anymore we have opinions and make that all too consuming
10 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor 1892? Yes, that's what they thought back then. Before that was the Treaty of Tripoli, however. Overriding both is the 1st amendment establishment clause.
10 hrs · Like · 1

Sammy Hillcrest Ridiculous is looking to tear down a cross that isn't harming or offensive just to jump on the PC bandwagon.
10 hrs · Like · 5

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
10 hrs · Like · 5

Meghan Broadley That cross has been there ever since I was a baby I love it. It's beautiful
10 hrs · Like · 2

David Suhor Sammy, I doubt you'd feel this issue is ridiculous if there were a Pentagram or Muslim crescent placed there. Not a bad idea, actually, if all religions deserve equal treatment. Please check your opinion to make sure it isn't influenced by your religious point of view.
10 hrs · Edited · Like

Sammy Hillcrest Wrong. My adopted brother is muslim. I am a jew who no longer practices. I am pagan (not the same as being satanic ). I am also a big girl who can respect the views and beliefs of others. That stuff doesn't offend me. I get flack all the time for my choices. Who cares.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Alan Gray Pensacola, allow me introduce you to the vocal minority.
Don't be surprised if he is successful in removing this cross. Especially if none of you voice your support to our elected officials.
10 hrs · Like · 4

Sammy Hillcrest You are just being a loud mouth and this is ridiculous.
10 hrs · Unlike · 2

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
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Lori Starks Moss Just for the record, David Suhor, I am pretty much agnostic, with wild woman tendencies. (Whatever that means). I'm just having fun in the peanut gallery because I needed a distraction from work. If you want the cross to come down, wait for the next hurricane.
9 hrs · Like · 1

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
9 hrs · Like · 1

Bernard Pennington Alan Gray does make a good point about He Who Would Represent Those Who Do Not Want Him. I no longer see a "cross". I see a symbolic representation of a ship mast and rigging. Take that down in a sailing town.
9 hrs · Like · 2

Lori Starks Moss Always be true to yourself! (that looks familiar, LOL)
9 hrs · Like

David Suhor Grand Haven, facing a losing lawsuit, changed their cross to an anchor. I like that idea. And it's symbolically consistent with the cross - whether weighing one down or keeping one in place in a storm. http://www.grandhaventribune.com/.../cross.../1593891

Cross-to-anchor transformation a waiting game
The decision about the Dewey Hill cross may be final,...
GRANDHAVENTRIBUNE.COM|BY SANDUSKY NEWSPAPERS, INC.
9 hrs · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview

Andrew Roemer Why is this such an issue to you, David?
9 hrs · Like

David Suhor At least it doesn't promote any particular religion. And it's consistent with honoring our Navy heritage and boating in Bayou Texar.
David Suhor's photo.
9 hrs · Like · 2

Lori Starks Moss Aye like it! Make it so, #1! (I think I have some tin snips and pliers in the garage...)
9 hrs · Unlike · 2

David Suhor Andrew Roemer. This is just another instance of our government favoring Christianity publicly and to the exclusion of other religions (or lack thereof). It's like the Christian prayers that start nearly every local council meeting... and even the school board. The selection process never gives equal treatment to minorities. And they mix religion with politics all the time. I firmly believe that faith is a personal thing. Like a penis, it should not be waved around in public. Religion and government should be completely separate in all ways. If you mix them, one faith gets special privilege though pandering. Most in the majority can not see this.
9 hrs · Edited · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber David I feel as though you're trying to get a rile out of us to victimize yourself. Stop. If you believe what you say, please go and prove us wrong.
9 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Crystal. I don't care what you think. My only concern is complete separation of church and state. Why does that idea offend you?
9 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington David Suhor, you didn't answer the question: the cross comes down, how many happy, how many not? Your guess?
9 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington Well? I care what you think.
9 hrs · Like

Bud Mitchell Read the Constitution! It does not say keep religion out of government just Government out of Religion!
9 hrs · Like · 2

David Suhor Bernard, popular opinion and pandering to the masses is not part of the equation of justice, nor is it relevant to Constitutional violations like this one. If this had been handled quietly and diplomatically when I first approached the City, very few would even notice it coming down.
9 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington You did not answer the question.
9 hrs · Unlike · 2

Sammy Hillcrest
Sammy Hillcrest's photo.
9 hrs · Like · 1

Bud Mitchell So You had no trouble taking money from 2 churches in the past while working for them. Did you leave on your own? It sounds like you have an axe to grind with Christians! And yes I am one and PROUD to say so. I am praying for you.
9 hrs · Like · 3

Meghan Routt "Very few would notice it coming down"???!!!
9 hrs · Like · 1

McCall Richardson Wow! I noticed your Front Page says you went to UWF and that you Left in 2001. Where did you go? Are you back. Ya know, you could always go back to wherever. Have you nothing else to do with your time? I'm sure there are plenty of other places to live that would give you your own special kind of warm, fuzzy feeling. Hell, I'll help you pack!
9 hrs · Unlike · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber LOLOLOLOLOL LOL okay. I've kept my potty mouth shut long enough. You think it's the idea of separation of church and state that offends me? FUCK no. It's YOU that offends me. Why do you offend me? Because you claim to be some "off-brand" Pagan. And Even though you keep denying it, you're using that religion as an exploit. AND you had the audacity to message me only repeating the nonsense you have been stating in here. People like you are the problem with society. Several Pagans have already openly stated they believe it should stay. It's been here since before your time. You're taking advantage of the corruption of the government as a whole to stir up some shit within the fucking community. If you don't care what I think, shut your fucking pie hole, go to the officials and rip the fucking cross out of the ground. PROVE ALL OF US WRONG. You even said beforehand that you were expecting this response.

What are you going to do? Compile the comments of those who hurt our ego and twist everything around for an anti- Christian campaign? Take your ostentatious, self centered, incredibly annoying ass and get like Felycia. Make Bye. You stated your concern. We stated ours. Now stop adding fuel to the fire.
9 hrs · Unlike · 3

McCall Richardson you must really need attention.
9 hrs · Like

Sloane Stephens Cox David Suhor, as many others have said, you have way too much time on your hands. How about starting with petitioning that we have working bathrooms and ample toilet paper at Bayview. Maybe then move to spraying more frequently for ants and adding some working water fountains and maybe some night security. Walking down there and picking up some of the garbage would show me a little bit more that you care about our community. But, judging from your previous post and comments in the newspaper, I think that McCall Richardson hit the nail on the head: you need attention.
9 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 8

William Nobles What is so offensive about a lower case "t"? If you see a cross, it's probably because you need to see a cross.
9 hrs · Like · 5

Lori Starks Moss I would spend lots more time at that park if there were less fire ants for sure. Parks should be places to rest, but keeping the fire ants off you is a cardio workout there!
9 hrs · Like · 2

McCall Richardson from what I can see on the Property Appraisers web site, his house is not within view of the offending monument. There are a great number of PUBLIC parks to choose from in the East Hill area. In fact, based on his address he has to pass a number of parks to get to Bayview. Why can't he just go to another park?
9 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber Oh god! I'm terrified of fire ants!
9 hrs · Like · 1

McCall Richardson Hey Davey, I'm certainly not a "bible thumper". I just don't see why you feel the need to change something that has been around for a long time. . . .before you showed up. It's like moving next to the airport and then complaining about the noise.
8 hrs · Like · 3

Sammy Hillcrest 'merica!!!!!!! http://l.facebook.com/l.php...

REACTIONGIFS.COM
8 hrs · Like · 1

Bernard Pennington You see, David Suhor, the fact that you side step the question regarding happiness of the people casts a strange light on your motivation. If you don't care about we want, why are you doing this? Answer the question. If the cross comes down, how many happy, how many not?
8 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor McCall, the 1st amendment establishment clause predates the cross in the park. I'd simply like to see this religious symbol removed to to meet Constitutional requirements. There's a reason we don't have crosses, pentagrams, crescents and stars of David all over public buildings. They are pointless and serve only to divide us. The same principle applies to our public parks. Keep church our of government and government out of church and we will all get along much better.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Sammy Hillcrest I say less people at Bayview and more dogs!!! Dogs don't whine and get offended by everything!!! http://l.facebook.com/l.php...

CDN.THEMETAPICTURE.COM
8 hrs · Like · 3

Don Watzka So.... Who wants a friendly wager? I bet the good people of East Hill, could get another cross erected with a plaque that reads "Thank you David" before he can get the long standing, non offensive cross taken down. Any takers? I'm willing to bet one dollar.
8 hrs · Like · 6

Bud Mitchell David you started this conversation so yes I do think my reply deserves public response not private message.
8 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest new and improved! Im in!
8 hrs · Like · 2

McCall Richardson I fully understand the 1st Amendment David. Spent many hours studying said document in college. So, just what is it that offends you? Would you go to another country and ask them to remove a similar monument? What if they had a 1st Amendment exactly like ours? I note you say you're "having fun". I feel certain it is about the only way you can enjoy yourself. Have you considered reading How to Win Friends & Influence People??? Bet you got beat up a lot in Grade School, didn't you smile emoticon
8 hrs · Unlike · 3

Crystal Lynn Huber And the right to bear arms predates all of these shootings. What's your point?
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Lol bear arms. HAHAHAHA
8 hrs · Like · 2

Sammy Hillcrest Crystal, I am glad I am not that only one who was laughing at "Bear arms"
8 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber
Crystal Lynn Huber's photo.
8 hrs · Like · 3

David Suhor Bernard Pennington, we don't put Constitutional rights to popular vote. If we did, you might see altar calls at City Council meetings. There might still be segregation and SSM would still be illegal. Those not in the majority have the right to petition our government and to enjoy our parks and without enduring religious rituals that counter our beliefs, and without seeing symbols of the dominant (yet wrong) faith everywhere. Should we all vote on the official religious denomination of the City of Pensacola? Careful your answer. I believe the 'nones' would win.
8 hrs · Edited · Like

Bernard Pennington Still not answering the question. Should I rephrase it?
8 hrs · Like

Meghan Routt Like i said before, if David wants it down he must remove it himself. Carry it away on your back. Don't hide behind Facebook and certainly city officials should not be forced to remove the cross and lose jobs refusing to do your dirty work!! Do it all by yourself. Good luck getting volunteers to help you.
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Do you even know what Christianity is about? Why do you keep saying it's wrong? Explain to me why the belief of Jesus and God is wrong.
8 hrs · Like

David Suhor No, I don't answer stupid questions.
8 hrs · Like

McCall Richardson Who is this "we all"??? Poor little David never had many friends. smile emoticon
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber And don't get it mixed up with organized religion.
8 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington I see. Community happiness is stupid?
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber The only stupid question is the one never asked. Or the one you can't answer. In this case I choose the latter.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber And I said to not message me. We are going public with this. Don't message me. Keep it in the forum Pl0x
8 hrs · Like · 1

McCall Richardson But you DO make presuppositions based on false logic and poorly formed arguments. Your use of the English language is commendable. I'm going to guess you never got out much so you don't really get along well with others. I would wager to bet you even run with scissors! Have a nice life and enjoy all the other parks over in your area
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Anything you say to me, can be stated in front of my neighbors
8 hrs · Like · 2

Bernard Pennington David Suhor, do you care about community happiness?
8 hrs · Like · 1

McCall Richardson It would appear you are the only one with his panties in a wad! smile emoticon
8 hrs · Like

Bernard Pennington And now you PM me instead of addressing the forum?
8 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber Omg Bernard Pennington, I feel your pain. I promise to never be a jack ass to you in the forums ever again. XD
8 hrs · Like · 2

McCall Richardson And for my next trick I will make David's address magically appear so the really nutty thumpers can go visit him and try to change his mind . . . . . . much in the same way he wants a large number of people to change.
8 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor I'm ashamed that this conversation has devolved into name-calling, taunting, veiled threats and personal attacks... not by me, mind you. I won't participate unless you have a relevant point to make.
8 hrs · Like · 2

Camille Drake I feel that taking down the cross is not "fair" and is also not a good compromise because it honors your religion of not having one. Of nothingness. Nothing nothing everywhere. No inspiration no nothing. Just nothing. Don't you realize the only thing your argument stands on the a technicality of who owns the small square of dirt that the post is in? Wonder how much the city is willing to sell that piece of dirt for.
8 hrs · Like · 1

Bernard Pennington I asked a very relevant question. You said "stupid".
8 hrs · Unlike · 1

Bernard Pennington Crystal Lynn Huber, you were not a jack ass. We're buds. I argue with my friends all the time.wink emoticon
8 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber So how bout that fish fry? colonthree emoticon
8 hrs · Like · 2

Don Watzka
Don Watzka's photo.
8 hrs · Like · 5

Crystal Lynn Huber Camille Drake technically he is agnostic pagan pantheist (sp?) Which is kind of a contradiction within itself. But claiming to be pagan means he worships and praises mother nature basically. The pagan and pantheism kind of go hand in hand. But I'm failing to understand where the agnostic falls into place.
8 hrs · Unlike · 1

Lori Starks Moss Maybe mother nature is there, maybe she isn't? I certainly know when she's around! Haaahaa
8 hrs · Like · 2

David Suhor What is the purpose of the cross in Bayview Park?
8 hrs · Like

Lori Starks Moss Why does it need a purpose?
8 hrs · Like · 2

Julie Pollum Seriously? Can't we all just get along?
8 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber I don't answer stupid questions.
8 hrs · Like

John Carter You lost me at "David Suhor"
8 hrs · Like

David Suhor Since it is likely to be the subject of a lawsuit, there should be a compelling reason for the City to have it there. But I'll rephrase. Why was the cross erected? And why is it up year-round?
8 hrs · Like

Sloane Stephens Cox There are just so many bigger issues right now, locally and nationally. I'll be honest, a cross at a park is at the very bottom of my list. I don't agree with the mean comments and name-calling on here, but I do feel like you could find a better issue to rally around, David Suhor. For one, I would sure like the city to do something about the dang flooding. It's as if you are worrying about the color of paint on the walls of the house that has a crack in the foundation and sinkholes all around.
8 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 6

Don Watzka I agree Sloane.
8 hrs · Like · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber And you have my point. I told you it would come down to a lawsuit anyways.
8 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor That depends on the City's decision - compromise or defiance.
8 hrs · Like

Julie Pollum Why does it offend u David?
8 hrs · Like

Ashli Baucum That's a good question. There's probably a written statement attached to the official receipt and acceptance of the gift. Something you should look into before pursuing its destruction.
8 hrs · Unlike · 2

Julie Pollum Why does it offend you David?
8 hrs · Like

Donna Olson All should read this article....the USA is NOT a Christian nation https://www.facebook.com/donna.../posts/10153389860433890
8 hrs · Unlike · 2

Bernard Pennington David Suhor, do you care about the happiness of the people? Such a simple question.
8 hrs · Unlike · 2

Crystal Lynn Huber Ms Julie Pollum I dunno if you read the previous comments but he said it doesn't offend him but he's fighting for separation of church and government. And apparently that harmless cross is unconstitutional. Which makes me wonder, will you remove all of the crosses on the side of the road?
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Ms Donna Olson, the link won't come up when I try to read it. Do you have another source I can read into?
7 hrs · Like

Cynthia Booker Donna Olson, that page is 'not available' so maybe the privacy setting is 'private' or 'friends only.'
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber I thought it was just me lol
7 hrs · Like

Donna Olson I'll try to get it out
7 hrs · Like

Heather Cutts Well just fuck, Sammy Hillcrest. Fuck it all
7 hrs · Like · 3

Julie Pollum I tried to wade thru the comments Crystal Lynn Huber, but too many. It seems like it's a harmless thing. I just wonder why it's so offensive to him. Let it roll! It harms no one!
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Lol that's what I thought Julie Pollum this definitely caused a ripple in our community. And I still don't think he answered Bernards question.
7 hrs · Like

Russell Nugent When is a cross not a cross? When it's part of a word! Just put the letters b a y f r o n to its left. Problem solved!
7 hrs · Edited · Like · 3

Gene Miller What do I think? I think I am tired of society Kowtowing to the wishes and whims of the vocal minority. Everyone seems to have forgotten that this is a country founded on majority rule.
7 hrs · Like · 4

Julie Pollum I agree Gene!! Stand up America!
7 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor So if the majority wanted Satanic pentagrams on all public buildings and in every public park, that would be OK with you?
7 hrs · Edited · Like

Ashli Baucum We are a republic, not a democracy. Elected officials and appointed judges decide on issues based on history and community wishes, not on whims of passing individuals. That's why the White Cross has stood for these 70 years.
7 hrs · Edited · Like · 3

Crystal Lynn Huber Yes it would.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber And why would you add satanic pentagrams? You do know, being a Pagan, that a pentagram is not satanic.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Julie Pollum If I were so incensed that I was considering suing to validate my minority view. I believe that would be my sign to move on David, that's all. Live where I was happy.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber Why edit your post three times to emphasize Satanic? Pentagrams are used for protectiong.
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Protection* in Pagan belief.
7 hrs · Like

Tyler Donati I was at the park just now and saw the most amazing thing.
Tyler Donati's photo.
7 hrs · Like · 11

Donna Olson http://www.alternet.org/.../5_reasons_america_is_not...

5 Reasons America Is Not -- And Has Never Been -- a Christian Nation
The myth that America is a "Christian nation" is not only...
ALTERNET.ORG
7 hrs · Like · 2

Donna Olson It is all about love and respect for ALL
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Tyler Donati omg I almost choked from laughing so hard. Oh Gawd. My hero.
7 hrs · Like · 2

Michelle Robert Smith Broadley One day I hope to have time to point out things just to cause controversy .One nation under God. Enough said.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Bernard Pennington David Suhor, you throw out rhetorical questions, yet won't answer actual ones. I'll answer yours: if the MAJORITY of the people were okay with satanic symbols, then the MAJORITY of people would, in fact, be okay with it. Now answer mine, please.
7 hrs · Like · 2

David Suhor Ashli Baucum I believe the cross has stood there for 70 years because no one in office is brave enough to challenge it. Separation of church and state only applies when it is politically expedient. That's why you have the school board making everyone pray to Jesus before meetings. It's why the County building permit committee held prayers to Jesus before considering permits (until a few months ago when I forwarded a complaint and they stopped). The school board still only allows certain agreeable religions to lead prayer. And the County, City and ECUA all lead the audience in prayer, almost always to the Christian god. In short, no one dares offend the PERCEIVED majority. So they pander to the tacit Christian privilege in government. It's unfortunate that it takes a lawsuit, or threat thereof, to get the church stuff out of our government. Judging by the reactions here, that's what will be required. And the result (minus the co$t of defending) will be the same. That's why I suggest compromise - make the cross removable (so it can be erected at Easter or whenever that space it rented) or replace it with an anchor that holds no religious baggage. Believe it or not, to some, the cross is a symbol of oppression, not love.
7 hrs · Like · 2

Lori Starks Moss Tyler Donati, I love it!
7 hrs · Like · 1

Ashli Baucum Want to see something truly disturbing?
https://youtu.be/RjkwPK8HuKQ

9 25 14 Escambia BOCC Pagan prayer SUNG!
Thanks to Lumon May, board chairman, for...
YOUTUBE.COM
7 hrs · Unlike · 2

Ashli Baucum Is it politically expedient? Probably. But maybe they're following the lead of our founding fathers who would open Congressional meetings in 3 hour prayer sessions.
They were far wiser than we. Maybe we should look to them?
7 hrs · Like · 2

Donna Olson Michelle Michelle Robert Smith Broadley..please read article...our founding fathers took religious freedom to heart. I just wish Christians today were bred as I....to love all and be open to all
7 hrs · Like · 2

Bernard Pennington How many, David Suhor, how many? Specifics, please. Did you poll the populace before you started this? You are attacking the peace of this community to what end? Apparently not concerned with what the neighborhood wants, you persevere because you didn't get the respect you thought you deserved from city officials? You are attacking the neighborhood.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Lori Starks Moss Just a public service announcement.
Lori Starks Moss's photo.
7 hrs · Like · 1

David Suhor Bernard. BS. This is an issue of separation of church and state, nothing more nothing less. Such Constitutional issues are not dependent on popular opinion - just like segregation, miscegenation and SSM. We have a basic right to a government without rampant religious symbolism, Christian privilege and bias in favor of one faith.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber Thats.. that's not a prayer Ashli Baucum, he is invoking the spirits of the elements which is usually done when casting a circle to perform certain rituals or to celebrate certain "holidays'' I've never seen an invocation done in this manner before. Odd.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Donna Olson I have tried to stay out of the EH weirdness but could not let this one go. David Suhor has every right to voice his opinion. This is much better than the usual dog vs cat fight
7 hrs · Like

Don Watzka David Suhor, you're extremely well spoken and obviously passionate about your cause. But some fights are the wrong ones to fight. Unless truly it bothers you that much. Then good luck to you, I just don't see it happening. And more backlash than support for your efforts.
7 hrs · Like · 2

Bernard Pennington When somebody tells you what you are doing feels like an attack and you persevere, it is an attack. Face facts, man. Your tactics show you for what you are about. And clean it up, sir.
7 hrs · Like

Angie Violi Rickmon
Angie Violi Rickmon's photo.
7 hrs · Like · 5

Ashli Baucum Donna Olson, no one is telling him not to voice his opinion. Most of us just disagree with it. End of story.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Crystal Lynn Huber And there's nothing wrong with casting a circle or anything. Unless your intentions are bad. The rule of 3!
7 hrs · Unlike · 1

Heather Cutts NYC skyline on Easter 1956. Insensitive assholes!
Heather Cutts's photo.
7 hrs · Like · 3

Donna Olson Ashli Baucum...some have said the opposite so I guess I also can express my opinion against the right
7 hrs · Like

Heather Cutts Turn those lights off! It's so offensive!!!
7 hrs · Like · 1

Ashli Baucum I don't understand your comment, Donna.
7 hrs · Like · 1

Donna Olson Oh young one
7 hrs · Like

Crystal Lynn Huber Instead of insulting her age, you should elaborate more on your comment. I take it that you saw where a few of us basically told him to shove it where the light doesn't shine. But those few who did were getting PMs from him and getting tired of him adding fuel to a fire that burned out long ago. No one here blatantly said he had no right tearing the cross down because of his religion and belief and blah blah blah. So I'm failing to understand your comment as well.
6 hrs · Like · 1

Lori Starks Moss Another Public Service Announcement, because people need enlightenment and this is as good a forum as any, especially with such clear examples. https://outofthefog.net/Common.../CircularConversations.html

Out of the FOG - Circular Conversations
Description, Definition & Examples of Circular Conversations with People who Suffer from Personality...
OUTOFTHEFOG.NET
6 hrs · Like · 2

Denise Myers-Powell Next he will sue the county for not taking crosses representing deaths down along the highways.
6 hrs · Like · 1

Gail Montuori Ashli our founding fathers were deists so I doubt very seriously they had prayer sessions. They were very definite about the separation of church and state as they had come from England which had a state church and many left because of persecution
If we are going to display a cross we should also represent all religions. Best to remove it from taxpayer property
6 hrs · Unlike · 2

Gene Miller Being a former law enforcement officer this is just a thought. After stirring all this animosity up among your neighbors and soon to be the community as a whole, since Bayview belongs to all city residents, how are the police ever going to narrow down the number of suspects when your property starts getting vandalized? Looks like you left that part out of your list of pros and cons before taking up this fight and introducing it to a public forum.
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Ashli Baucum That isn't true, Gail Montuori. Over half of the founding fathers had seminary degrees. Some were pastors. John Adams in his writings credited men of God with the leadership through the revolution. Even the two least God-led Fathers (Jefferson and Franklin) give heavy credit to the Scriptures.
Also... If you look at the very first Congressional Records (from 1789), you'll find their 3 hour prayer sessions.
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David Suhor Gene, that's why I have video surveillance in and around my home, uploaded to the 'net. Thanks for the tacit encouragement, though. With the ferocity of opinion, that is not unexpected. Someone else even offered to publish my address. Ah, the South.
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Gail Montuori Nonetheless, I don't want a religious symbol in government property. I doubt you assumption that the founding fathers would have supported it
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Lori Starks Moss David Suhor, according to your website, you're from the South. Did you find better separation of church and state elsewhere in your travels?
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Ashli Baucum I don't think they would have had to support it. The heart and mind of the people and leadership was on God, praying for direction and for a blessed new country.
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Glenn Parker Gene Miller, I think you should rethink your post, which comes across as a threat. If not by you, clearly inciting someone else. There's no need for that.
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David Suhor Lori. I live here (24 years) so my focus is here. But yes, I get the impression that some other areas are less dedicated to Christian dominion and have less religious pandering by government officials.
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Gene Miller Don't misread my post as showing concern.
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Lori Starks Moss http://www.pewresearch.org/.../conflicts-continue-over.../

Conflicts continue over nativity scenes on public property
44% of Americans favor allowing religious displays like...
PEWRESEARCH.ORG
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Lori Starks Moss http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/religious-symbols-on...

Religious symbols on public property trigger debates | First Amendment...
FIRSTAMENDMENTCENTER.ORG
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Lori Starks Moss David Suhor, while your vocabulary is impressive, your argument valid in a sense, I think what the majority of your neighbors are saying is that you're choosing to put your time/energy and if you're talking about hiring a lawyer and likely you'll need expert witnesses to back up your opinion, money, into a losing battle. Haven't you ever heard the saying "Choose your battles wisely?" http://www.leagle.com/.../HEWETT%20v.%20CITY%20OF%20KING Just a few minutes of research...

HEWETT v. CITY OF KING by BEATY, District Judge | Leagle.com
Steven HEWETT, Plaintiff, v. CITY OF KING,...
LEAGLE.COM|BY BEATY, DISTRICT JUDGE
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Gene Miller Reading to much into it Glenn Parker. I just don't think he is very bright and may not have considered the consequences of his actions. I mean him no harm and do not encourage others to harm him or his property. I have responded to calls from people like him seeking legal assistance from the police in protecting them from their neighbors hostile actions brought on by their own lack of foresight.
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David Suhor Lori Starks Moss Thanks for the concern. I respond somehow to all church/state complaints I receive. This one just happens to strike close to home. I believe in fighting all such battles, if only to let those in charge know there is opposition. And frankly, I enjoy the scrum. Each case is unique. I feel this one is a particularly blatant endorsement of religion by the City. The school board's prayer violations is another. I've put some others on the back burner.
So far, no one has even tried to convince me that the City doesn't favor Christian iconography. They know that the Bayview cross is a government-sponsored religious symbol AND THEY LIKE IT. So they attack my motives, try to re-direct me, and cite popular opinion as justification. That only fortified my resolve.
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David Suhor Here's a simple question for those who disagree with me: Is the Bayview cross a religious symbol? If not, what secular purpose does it serve on City property?
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Meghan Routt I smell a "greater problem in our community". I was on to you months ago. You are a broken individual. It is so disturbing that you take pride in this. I will be praying for you. wow.
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Lori Starks Moss You live in the Bible Belt, dude. No offense, and excuse the pun (yes, it's intended) but this David v. Goliath will turn out much differently than the original. (If there was an original, but that's a discussion for another day - not saying I actually want to discuss it either) I appreciate the resolve, and all I'll say is that your passions could use better prioritizing. With that, I'm jumping off this hamster wheel. Good luck. Peace. (Drops mic, walks away)
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Meghan Routt Im still trying to figure out why David you think the the beach cross is "historical" but this one is not?
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David Suhor Nice judgment Meghan. Keep praying and I will keep taking action. We'll see which is more effective. The beach cross is (purportedly) linked to DeLuna's landing. The Bayview cross has no such historical significance.
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Glenn Parker David Suhor, a better question is what was your intent in posting this anyway? You're clearly not listening to anyone. You're going to do what you want to do only, with no concern for the opinions you asked for. You're right it is a religious symbol, but it's one that has a lot of great memories for a lot of people, and not only religious memories. Memories are significant. But that means nothing to you.
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Ashli Baucum A monument can mean 100 different things to 100 different people. If you want to know what that White Cross' purpose was when it was gifted, you'll have to ask the gifters. I'm sure its in the archives somewhere.
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David Suhor You are right, Glenn. The cross is purely religious. And yes, I value Constitutional principles over people's feel-good memories, centered on religion. I posted this to bring public awareness and because the City was not responding. Now they will and people are aware of the church/state violation. So I'm glad I made the posting.
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David Suhor Meghan Routt What is the significance then? Did DeLuna come ashore there? If the Easter services were historic, why is there no plaque? A religious tradition is not a secular, historically significant event. It is there to honor Christians alone. That is unconstitutional. Can you name any other purpose for the cross? I'll await your answer.
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Glenn Parker Yeah, thanks for making a lot of us aware who oppose you. Good job.
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Gene Miller Glenn http://m.inweekly.net/wordpress/?p=20872

David Suhor and The Latest Battle Over Prayer | Inweekly
The battle over the separation of church and state is,...
INWEEKLY.NET
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Glenn Parker Gene, I don't care about any of that
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Gene Miller Glenn
http://wildhunt.org/.../pagan-invocation-makes-waves-in...

Pagan Invocation Makes Waves in the Florida Panhandle | The Wild Hunt
Pagan David Suhor has been making waves in Florida's...
WILDHUNT.ORG
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Glenn Parker Or that
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David Suhor Ashli Baucum I have searched for that answer. I can not find it. Please look and help me. But don't overlook the obvious - that Pensacola has a rich religious tradition and someone wanted a permanent monument to commemorate it and to inspire people toward Christianity. In essence the City and is endorsing Christianity - a violation of the 1st amendment. Can you offer another (secular) explanation for it's presence? Because that's what will decide the case.
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Gene Miller Glenn
http://jeffbergoshblog.blogspot.com/.../insight-into-one...

Jeff Bergosh Blog: Insight into One Person's Motivation for Demanding he...
JEFFBERGOSHBLOG.BLOGSPOT.COM|BY JEFF BERGOSH
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Gene Miller That explains his motivation Glenn. He is a narcissistic publicity seeker and trouble maker.
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Glenn Parker He has his opinion and his right to it
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David Suhor Ah, Bergosh - standing for a strong Christian presence in our public school and denying the rights of minorities to have an equal say. He and I have never had a proper conversation, but he knows me SO well. If you want to discuss him, message me. This post is about the cross.
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Ashli Baucum David Suhor, I will definitely look and I will find the answer. Nothing can be done until you actually know what you're dealing with. So, this thread is useless right now.
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Glenn Parker And Mr Suhor you're still wrong about the mount Soledad cross coming down. Specially now that the land has been taken over by the veterans association and deemed part of the memorial.
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Denise Myers-Powell So this picture on his profile isn't even him?
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Erin Colleen Griffin If the cross is truly offending you, take the steps instructed to contact the city attorney. I will not give you the whole "you're wasting your time and city tax dollars" argument like everyone else... However, an investigation will be made and there will certainly be archival information detailing the city's role in maintaining this landmark.

I understand your concern, but the most favorable outcome you can expect is some sort of donation to the park from other local religious/spiritual denominations. A precedent has been set and maintained for decades... I'm not sure what you're looking for other than an argument with a bunch of strangers.... Er, neighbors.
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David Suhor Ashli, Try the UWF PNJ archives on microfilm. The Easter services were a front page story on Saturday and Monday for years. They mention the stage in 1951 and there was a resolution (now lost) before the City Council that same year. I've searched '48-57, but there is no mention of the permanent cross. Before or after - who knows? I've also requested relevant docs from the City. They say they have no more records to share. My requests are public records. I have anecdotal info from participants (family of the man named on the stage's plaque) who say a tree was cut and a temporary cross placed every year. In short, we don't (yet) know when the cross was permanently erected or donated. We can only guess why, and there doesn't seem to be a secular reason. If I can share what I know, I'm happy to. I hope the City will do the same, but I think I they don't have any more info. Other questions remain: Who replaced the (rounded, original) cross with the current (more square) one? Who has done all the upkeep (with documentation)? I suspect all this was done by the City. If you can show otherwise, that would be good to know. PS History major/teacher here. There's a lot of legwork involved.
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John Carter The Bayview Cross states that it is: dedicated to C. Frasier Phelps Sponsored - Donated Junior Chamber of Commerce 4-17-1949
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David Suhor John, that plaque refers to the stage, not the cross itself. That is documented in the PNJ from 1951. I have no issue with the stage or the dedication plaque.
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Erin Colleen Griffin Well, political science major/npr addict here- there are more records somewhere and they will be found if you stand behind your rhetoric and do something ab it by prompting legal procedure.
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David Suhor Erin Colleen Griffin I've reached out to the City Attorney and the Parks head. I've politely asked for a meeting. So far, neither of them will speak to me. To my knowledge, neither has commented on the record about the cross, its re/placement, its maintenance or the reason it remains. I think this publicity may change that. Thanks!

If there are more records held by the City, they are not producing them.
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Gene Miller
Gene Miller's photo.
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John Carter Why would they dedicate a stage to someone?
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Erin Colleen Griffin David Suhor if you've got the gravitas to take the city on, by all means- please do. There are plenty of constitutional law attorneys who will look into it for a substantial retainer on your end... The archives will find that city involvement is legal for this particular instance.
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David Suhor JC I don't know, but they did. It's in the 1951 PNJ.
David Suhor's photo.
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David Suhor The actual resolution is missing from City records.... I was told in response to my public records request.
David Suhor's photo.
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Gene Miller So the cross does have history and significance. Like the Bonifay memorial it is actually dedicated to someone's loved one. Yeah let me know how removing a dedicated memorial site works out for you Suhor. Just because people don't remember doesn't diminish it's presence. And you posted the picture of the dedication with out researching it's background or significance. Shame on you, you attention who're.
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David Suhor Erin Colleen Griffin In some cases, there simply isn't a record of why something happened. In that case, we need to use common sense and ask if this likely served some non-religious purpose. As far as attorneys, I would like work with the City and avoid that mess. That is not my choice, though. It is the choice of the City attorney and perhaps the Parks department, mayor and City council. I can only gather the info and present it to them... if they will hear me. If not...
David Suhor's photo.
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Meghan Routt "The Bayview cross has no such historical significance." ???!!! I think many will argue against that. Who gave you the right to state that as a fact?
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David Suhor Gene Miller. NO! The cross is not a memorial to Mr Phelps. The STAGE is. Please read more carefully. If you ask me, the cross is a memorial - to Jesus Christ and his followers, retained, supported, maintained and likely replaced by the City.
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Erin Colleen Griffin "The FOIA does not, however, provide access to records of the Congress or the federal courts, records of state or local government agencies, or records of private businesses or individuals. All states have their own statutes governing public access to state and local government records; state agencies should be consulted for further information about them."

I'm telling you, with all of this fuss and frustration on your end, double down and do something ab it... The passion you've demonstrated surely means you're willing to lawyer up.

The cross stays.
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David Suhor You had me up until 'the cross stays'. For Meghan Routt - do you know of any thing purpose other than a religious one for the cross being there? That is not secular history; it is religious alone. "Such historical significance" refers to the beach cross marking the arrival of DeLuna. Any reasonable person would see that the Bayview cross doesn't meet that high historical standard. If so, it would have a plaque indicating so.
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Kim Wolfersperger Amen
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Tim Prechter You know, this issue never crossed my mind.
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Bud Mitchell So because the beach cross was there first all other ones are not historic? Does that mean that any statue to Christopher Columbus is the only historic statue of a man that would be historic? Or once someone wrote a jazz song no one should write another? Or anyone that painted a painting? This cross does have historic value to the people of Pensacola. Maybe not to you David but it does to others. So I ask you to think of something that means something to you and consider hoe you would feel if for no reason someone decided to take it away just for the fun of it. Again I will be praying for you to consider someone other than yourself.
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David Suhor Really Bud? You can't see the difference between a historical marker noting the arrival of the Spanish to our area and a cross placed as a convenience to local Christians? It's not about which is first. It's about intent and purpose. The purpose of the Bayview cross was to make it easier for worshipers on Easter Sunday. And it stayed (year round) even when services didn't happen. While I don't defend the beach cross, at least it reflects important colonial history, not Christian privilege. If the Bayview cross is so important to our history, why is they City denying that they maintain it? Any why no plaque honoring the Christians who worshiped there? I don't do this for fun or for 'no reason'. I do it because the cross represents an unconstitutional endorsement of religion by our City. I suspect you can't see that because the religion endorsed your own. Would you feel the same historical sympathy if Muslims celebrated in the park every year and erected a permanent emblem right alongside the cross?
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Meghan Broadley Can we just delete this post
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McCall Richardson BTW. It's "Freedom OF Religion". NOT, "Freedom FROM Religion". Plain and very simple. It's not just an American thing either. Many countries, even countries with State Religions have a "Freedom OF Religion" stance. But Nooooo, David can't seem to get along with others who don't feel the same way. I hate people with brown hair. They must all leave, NOW! Except, of course, the really cute girls with broen hair. They can stay smile emoticon
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McCall Richardson There ya go Bud! Let's all pitch in and get a "memorial" or "pagan" monument dedicated to David, the ALL KNOWING & ENLIGHTENED DB". Hey, I know, a Statute in the likeness of David, by Michelangelo . . .
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David Suhor I expect religion when I enter a church or temple. I even expect it on the street (free speech). But, you wouldn't want to hear Muslim prayers at City Council meetings or see Pentagrams in City parks. And our government shouldn't endorse a religion and force it into council meetings and onto City property. The court house is not a church house and the public park is not a place to park your religion. The best way to make peace is to keep religion out of government and vice-versa. That idea is only offensive to those who enjoy the pandering and privilege provided by Christian-biased politicians.
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Harris Turner
Harris Turner's photo.
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Kathy Tanner There is Peace here and never doubt the Pensacola History here. Many park goers could write a page in a diary of the peace it historically served. It is like the beach cross = Historically Peaceful Serving and reminding us of simple things, joy and answered prayers. How many sat and prayed here? I was told by a Japanese woman at the Bon Fest a few years ago that this cross gave her peace? It is simple and strong and very nice. It is History.
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The feral cats and dog poop trash can slingers of East Hill say...  (LEAVE DAVID ALONE meme)
Jeff Matthews's photo.
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21 people like this.

Lori Starks Moss Haaahaa!
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Rusty Gremillion What have you started William A. Thames? lol
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Amy Tonetti Bahahahaha
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McCall Richardson Hey everybody, we're having a big get together at David's house. Don't say anything, it's a surprise party smile emoticon
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Julie Pollum Ha!! A little levity never hurts!
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David Suhor McCall Richardson Another veiled threat? Nice. When is the party? I'll be sure to take video.
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McCall Richardson no worries. nobody responded to the invite. Keep your 'selfie-stick close by! smile emoticon the good news. . . .
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Madisen Peggy Edwards This made me lol.
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